What are the general thoughts on the 2008v1 release so far? We have just started to use it and don't really see much new or improved. Are there any massive improvements?
Right now we are tryign to decide to renew our subscription or move on to another suite such as Telerik.
The Infragisitcs controsl have been ok and we have usedthem for years but overall they are very heavy for web use and more complex than they need to be. Support and sample code is also weak in our view.
With all due respect to the requirements for maintaining complex software, I'd have to say that one of our primary observations about Infragistics products is that the steak has frequently fallen short of the sizzle. Our Senior Engineer with 25+ years of programming experience on the 80X processor family remarks frequently that Infragistics should spend about half the time they spend on their web presence and sales efforts on the development of the product. When our techs finally decipher the toolset, it's easy to achieve impressive results, but we often wonder whether we may have been able to do something similar in a comparable amount of time without the 3rd party tool. Under circumstances like this, payout begins only with the second or third project accomplished with the tool, and only then when it's done by the same technician.
Your observation that the 2008v1 product seems not to hold much substantial change over past releases is one that I've, personally, made with prior releases. The ever-present critique that it seems all-too-apparent that nobody on the design team ever revisits documentation with an eye toward continuous improvement seems so hackneyed that it now seems a foregone conclusion that mentioning it will do absolutely no good whatsoever.
Here's a workflow statistic: When we put new technicians to work with infragistics tools, IN EXCESS of 73% of their tool time is spent viewing the help documentation. By comparision, when we receive new MS releases (for instance our recent adoption of .NET 3.5 or VS2008) new technicians spend about 18% of their tool time in help systems. We're now several generations into the ASP.NET product line from Infragistics and still don't have context-sensitive help (or even easily-searchable help, for that matter.) This type of documentation is fine for in-house solutions where the majority of help documentation viewers are already familiar with API and technique, but it's woefully inadequate for efficient production use.
Infragistics pushes hard for developers to adopt annual subscriptions to their packages, but after our first experience with it, we quickly decided that it would be highly undesirable to pay far more than we pay for a tool like VS2008 Professional Edition for a toolset that lacks the polish and attention to detail that IG should be backpushing with every release. Someone at IG might invest some well-spent time reviewing how to detail existing offerings during a development cycle rather than adding new features with weak appeal and heavy potential for regression.
That's my .02 worth, this is our 5th year using IG products, and our second annual release purchase.
Jason LockridgeSr. ProgrammerSmithSystems, Inc.Los Angeles, CA
I have to agree that the learning curve for Infragistics controls can be fairly steep. I have been using IG controls for Win and WebForms for some years, and have a fair understanding of the controls I use. Learning any new controls can be somewhat daunting, and can consume large amounts of development time.
I also use controls from other supliers, and have found the experience to be fairly similar.
The easiest way a developer can learn a control is to see it in action. OK, I know IG has examples etc, but these tend to show many controls being used simultaneously and only cover perhaps a single aspect of the control a developer may be interested in.
A much better way would be to have many simple examples in a library. On release of a control, IG could produce a few examples of the control being used. Then when a developer runs into trouble trying to use the control, either IG or a forum contributer could provide a solution example. In this way a shared libary of simple examples could be quickly assembled, providing both old and new developers with an easier learning curve.
So, what about it IG ? Would you create a contributable library in these forums ?
Alex Samson
IT Consultant
Alex
Project examples do help clarify usage for complex tools, but this approach creates "vectored" development (in which developers are "vectored" into a design approach modeled after another developer's technique.)
Creativity with tools intended to be used at the presentation layer simply must have meticulous documentation, and any tool developed in this generation WITHOUT context sensitive help is inexcusable.
We've all seen this faux pas from developers: after they finish a half-hearted effort at documenting their product, that's the end of it. Their first efforts propogate from generation to generation with only minor addendums, instead of comprehensive review, reorganization, and new efforts to take advantage of new documentation technology (like video exemplar in deployed solutions.)
With tools as complex as IG's, at this price point, customers should settle for nothing less. And, in a way, I think that they vote their dissatisfaction by skipping generations of releases when they don't perceive the polish and detail that meets the current best practice.
Jason
Hello there. I've been working with Infragistics tools for about two years now. The one thing I have seen over and over again, on just about every control, and most recently on the Web Schedule set of controls, is the complete and utter lack of real world examples and help documentation on creating applications that require customization of your controls. Below is the current, frustrating example.
We're creating a calendar application. I started with the month view. I installed your sql scripts to create the database, and delved in to your examples. You had a vb.net example, which used to be rare and was nice to see, but then I quickly realized you had done the usual IG thing and nearly all of the example was in javascript. The codebehinds looked like a ghost town, devoid of code. Javascript is notoriously hard to follow when it gets in to the amount you use, but I gave a big sigh and started in on it anyway. After a week of trying to customize it to what I need, I realized it was useless. First of all, your example uses older versions of some of the controls. Second, I needed to add additional fields to the Add Appointment dialog. The forums were more helpful than your documentation on that, which is common, but even they weren't able to fully explain it. You have one example in the knowledge base, but it describes only half the process. The other half you have to wing it and pray. I had to extend your appointment object, which is fine, but then using that extended appointment object in the custom data provider I had to create was difficult. I had to call your support multiple times. Thankfully, you have a wonderful man named Nainil that apparently knows the WebSchedule stuff inside out. Even he was stumped a couple of times. But eventually I managed to get it all worked out. I have been progamming for 9 years. The other people on my time have been doing this for just as long, or longer. It took us over a month to get this all working correctly. In hindsight, I would rather have just coded my own calendar system than use your control simply for the length of time it took to figure it out, and customize it. At least if I create it myself, I know how the thing works. But I use third-party controls because I want to save time. This is completely unacceptable. By comparison, any new control from Microsoft we can usually figure out and fully impliment, with customizations, in a few days or less. Telerik controls take a little longer, but nowhere near as long as yours.
It's not the controls. Once you figure them out, they're wonderful. It's the samples and documentation, and severe lack of dev presence in your forums (unless they're trying to defend themselves). I know you want to charge everyone for good help, but what you're going to end up doing is just losing customers that would have bought another subscription.
That's my opinion and experience. Others may vary. Have a good one.
Michael J. CollinsAlston & Bird, LLPApplication Development
Exactly. Share working small sample codes right here!
I saw IG staff spending tons of time in talking here and old forum. Please provide one page sample web application with short description.
Hi Ambrose,
If the snippets are considered very small then yes the forums would be a good place however I hope this is in addition to the knowledge base where larger solutions can be demonstrated and downloaded.
Also I think a top x FAQ of some sort for each control of the forum questions as most often would be helpful by not having to answer the same questions over and over on the forums. Maybe update it per release or quarterly.
Thanks,
Nick
nsmith555 said:While I am all for code snippets I am unsure the forums are the best place for them. The knowledgebase offers a more condensed and formalized approach. However the knowledgebase needs some substantial revision and housecleaning of information dated back to 2002. Perhaps task some of those guys building Tangerine with a new version of the knowledgebase. I know sometimes the cobblers son is last to get new shoes.
Funny you should mention this, Nick. We have been considering the best way to improve the KB experience. I have this crazy idea of taking advantage of the forums publish KB content. Seems to have a lot to recommend it: good search, existing channel (i.e., fewer places you guys have to look for info), built-in subscription features (RSS/email), built-in feedback features (so you guys could easily offer suggestions, alternatives, etc.), and built-in aging, as it were. We have some other, more traditional options, of course, but know that it is something we are currently working on.
Thanks to all for the feedback. The constructive suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Hello Ambrose,
While I am all for code snippets I am unsure the forums are the best place for them. The knowledgebase offers a more condensed and formalized approach. However the knowledgebase needs some substantial revision and housecleaning of information dated back to 2002. Perhaps task some of those guys building Tangerine with a new version of the knowledgebase. I know sometimes the cobblers son is last to get new shoes.
Personally I believe the control that I use the most UltraWinGrid is much better documented than most of the others and perhaps can serve as a guide for the others. As well MikeS does a fantastic job of answering questions on the forum whereas on some of the others I have just been ignored.
I have only delved into Web programming once with your controls so I cannot comment on them although I found web programming in general a more frustrating effort than winforms and can appreciate those who endeavor to do such. Anything that can make learning and using the tools easier would be appreciated I am sure. One of the releases had a series of videos about new features which was very good however that hasn't seemed to be carried onward.
I can appreciate the tug-of-war that must go on because of all the new technologies being fostered by Microsoft. It seems the pace keeps accelerating. Although the documentation can be improved I must say after 30 years in this business it's so much easier now than trying to find the cause of an F0 General Fault in a thousand page manual.