What are the general thoughts on the 2008v1 release so far? We have just started to use it and don't really see much new or improved. Are there any massive improvements?
Right now we are tryign to decide to renew our subscription or move on to another suite such as Telerik.
The Infragisitcs controsl have been ok and we have usedthem for years but overall they are very heavy for web use and more complex than they need to be. Support and sample code is also weak in our view.
With all due respect to the requirements for maintaining complex software, I'd have to say that one of our primary observations about Infragistics products is that the steak has frequently fallen short of the sizzle. Our Senior Engineer with 25+ years of programming experience on the 80X processor family remarks frequently that Infragistics should spend about half the time they spend on their web presence and sales efforts on the development of the product. When our techs finally decipher the toolset, it's easy to achieve impressive results, but we often wonder whether we may have been able to do something similar in a comparable amount of time without the 3rd party tool. Under circumstances like this, payout begins only with the second or third project accomplished with the tool, and only then when it's done by the same technician.
Your observation that the 2008v1 product seems not to hold much substantial change over past releases is one that I've, personally, made with prior releases. The ever-present critique that it seems all-too-apparent that nobody on the design team ever revisits documentation with an eye toward continuous improvement seems so hackneyed that it now seems a foregone conclusion that mentioning it will do absolutely no good whatsoever.
Here's a workflow statistic: When we put new technicians to work with infragistics tools, IN EXCESS of 73% of their tool time is spent viewing the help documentation. By comparision, when we receive new MS releases (for instance our recent adoption of .NET 3.5 or VS2008) new technicians spend about 18% of their tool time in help systems. We're now several generations into the ASP.NET product line from Infragistics and still don't have context-sensitive help (or even easily-searchable help, for that matter.) This type of documentation is fine for in-house solutions where the majority of help documentation viewers are already familiar with API and technique, but it's woefully inadequate for efficient production use.
Infragistics pushes hard for developers to adopt annual subscriptions to their packages, but after our first experience with it, we quickly decided that it would be highly undesirable to pay far more than we pay for a tool like VS2008 Professional Edition for a toolset that lacks the polish and attention to detail that IG should be backpushing with every release. Someone at IG might invest some well-spent time reviewing how to detail existing offerings during a development cycle rather than adding new features with weak appeal and heavy potential for regression.
That's my .02 worth, this is our 5th year using IG products, and our second annual release purchase.
Jason LockridgeSr. ProgrammerSmithSystems, Inc.Los Angeles, CA
I have to agree that the learning curve for Infragistics controls can be fairly steep. I have been using IG controls for Win and WebForms for some years, and have a fair understanding of the controls I use. Learning any new controls can be somewhat daunting, and can consume large amounts of development time.
I also use controls from other supliers, and have found the experience to be fairly similar.
The easiest way a developer can learn a control is to see it in action. OK, I know IG has examples etc, but these tend to show many controls being used simultaneously and only cover perhaps a single aspect of the control a developer may be interested in.
A much better way would be to have many simple examples in a library. On release of a control, IG could produce a few examples of the control being used. Then when a developer runs into trouble trying to use the control, either IG or a forum contributer could provide a solution example. In this way a shared libary of simple examples could be quickly assembled, providing both old and new developers with an easier learning curve.
So, what about it IG ? Would you create a contributable library in these forums ?
Alex Samson
IT Consultant
Alex
Project examples do help clarify usage for complex tools, but this approach creates "vectored" development (in which developers are "vectored" into a design approach modeled after another developer's technique.)
Creativity with tools intended to be used at the presentation layer simply must have meticulous documentation, and any tool developed in this generation WITHOUT context sensitive help is inexcusable.
We've all seen this faux pas from developers: after they finish a half-hearted effort at documenting their product, that's the end of it. Their first efforts propogate from generation to generation with only minor addendums, instead of comprehensive review, reorganization, and new efforts to take advantage of new documentation technology (like video exemplar in deployed solutions.)
With tools as complex as IG's, at this price point, customers should settle for nothing less. And, in a way, I think that they vote their dissatisfaction by skipping generations of releases when they don't perceive the polish and detail that meets the current best practice.
Jason
Jason,
I agree to an extent with your comments, but the problem is that all software vendors are faced with the problem of enhancing existing products and developing new ones, When a new product or version is released (especially in the control marketplace) there is strong pressure to move on to the next version, partly due to us, the customers, who demand new features.
The above means that the documentation of software often is given a much lower priority.
Yes, I would like to see more documentation effort (with context sensitive help), but the effort involved in this would almost certainly result in a more expensive product, and I am not sure this may be the best path.
In another post in this section, I have advocated a searchable database of code snippets contributed to by both IG staff and IG customers. My gut feeling is that this may be not only a more cost effective option, but also one where developers can learn much more quickly about any product features.
I think IG products represent good value for money, and have experienced other vendors who supply poor quality products and documentation. I will continue to renew my yearly subscriptions to IG products as renewal costs are much lower than initial purchases when skipping several releases.
Hi guys,
I'm intrigued by this idea of a code snippet share. I'm wondering, do you think we could just do that on these forums? The reason I think that might be best is that I think we devs already like to go to forums when looking for help to a specific problem. The forums have a pretty good search engine and are indexed by Google, and they support attachments. We are also working on getting an insert code snippet feature going as well.
We could all use, say, "Code Snippet" as a tag on such posts, then we could more easily find them.
Thoughts?
Ambrose
Just a couple of comments.
Code sharing takes place on forums like these whether its officially sanctioned or not. But -- and I hesitate to add this for fear of sounding negative -- the need for disjointed assistance with coding examples is some evidence of broken documentation.
Please remember that every time one of my programmers has to move OUTSIDE the IDE to seek assistance working with your controls, productivity is damaged. Perhaps there could be a way incorporate this outside forum into the VSCC to allow for searches to be performed based on contextual inquiry from within the IDE.
That being said, I think there is value in a managed programming technique reservoir in these forums. (By managed, I mean organized and reviewed.)
Hi Jason,
Thanks for the ideas and feedback.
I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that sharing code and code snippets on the forums here would exclude our continued efforts to enhance our docs. We have been improving and will continue to improve our docs, regardless, as an integral help tool.
I'm just looking to explore ways to extend our other avenues (like the forums and other online community resources) to get folks the help they need. Not everyone uses installed/contextual help in VS, even with MSDN lib. Lots of folks like to just Google and use forums, blogs, and such (seems to be more and more common as time goes on), so these are ways to assist those who prefer to get help that way, to supplement what we do with the docs.
Some of my thoughts about the "managed" aspect: Any time you add a review process, the flow of information gets constrained. If you look at, e.g., Code Project, you'll see that having unmanaged avenues has great potential to provide lots of good information. In my years of helping to manage community sites (like ASPAlliance.com and www.asp.net), I found, to my surprise, that folks as a rule prefer more content to higher quality content. Blogs are another example of this. It seems that good search mechanisms and our brains help us quickly filter to content that meets our needs.
So I'm saying I tend toward not trying to control such a community-driven effort. I think you guys are pros and have a lot to offer each other without my or someone else here getting in the way and meddling about.
Hi Ambrose,
If the snippets are considered very small then yes the forums would be a good place however I hope this is in addition to the knowledge base where larger solutions can be demonstrated and downloaded.
Also I think a top x FAQ of some sort for each control of the forum questions as most often would be helpful by not having to answer the same questions over and over on the forums. Maybe update it per release or quarterly.
Thanks,
Nick
nsmith555 said:While I am all for code snippets I am unsure the forums are the best place for them. The knowledgebase offers a more condensed and formalized approach. However the knowledgebase needs some substantial revision and housecleaning of information dated back to 2002. Perhaps task some of those guys building Tangerine with a new version of the knowledgebase. I know sometimes the cobblers son is last to get new shoes.
Funny you should mention this, Nick. We have been considering the best way to improve the KB experience. I have this crazy idea of taking advantage of the forums publish KB content. Seems to have a lot to recommend it: good search, existing channel (i.e., fewer places you guys have to look for info), built-in subscription features (RSS/email), built-in feedback features (so you guys could easily offer suggestions, alternatives, etc.), and built-in aging, as it were. We have some other, more traditional options, of course, but know that it is something we are currently working on.
Thanks to all for the feedback. The constructive suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Hello Ambrose,
While I am all for code snippets I am unsure the forums are the best place for them. The knowledgebase offers a more condensed and formalized approach. However the knowledgebase needs some substantial revision and housecleaning of information dated back to 2002. Perhaps task some of those guys building Tangerine with a new version of the knowledgebase. I know sometimes the cobblers son is last to get new shoes.
Personally I believe the control that I use the most UltraWinGrid is much better documented than most of the others and perhaps can serve as a guide for the others. As well MikeS does a fantastic job of answering questions on the forum whereas on some of the others I have just been ignored.
I have only delved into Web programming once with your controls so I cannot comment on them although I found web programming in general a more frustrating effort than winforms and can appreciate those who endeavor to do such. Anything that can make learning and using the tools easier would be appreciated I am sure. One of the releases had a series of videos about new features which was very good however that hasn't seemed to be carried onward.
I can appreciate the tug-of-war that must go on because of all the new technologies being fostered by Microsoft. It seems the pace keeps accelerating. Although the documentation can be improved I must say after 30 years in this business it's so much easier now than trying to find the cause of an F0 General Fault in a thousand page manual.
Jason, Ambrose, et al
It should be obvious from these exchanges that the IG documentation is somewhat lacking, and does not match the quality of the actual controls. I do not feel that taking a 'us and them' antagonistic stance is not helpful, so please take the comments below as suggestions and opinions.
I am still favouring a searchable code snippet library as a means by which some short term benefit can be gained to plug the obvious gap in the documentation.
I do also agree that IG needs to put more effort into their documentation.
I have been involved in many large scale projects, some dealing with critical software such as aircraft control systems. As part of the final acceptance testing of these systems, personnel (who had not been involved in the development) were brought into the project to undertake this testing. This methodology always produced quick results in defining flaws in both the software and any documentation. I do not know how IG assigns staff to the production of the documentation, but I could suggest that they use a new recruit (graduate level ?) who has little understanding of IG controls, and simply get them to produce real world code using the IG controls and the documentation. Every time they had to ask for assistance should demonstrate some flaw in the documentation, which should be recorded as a need to enhance the documentation. This internal feedback coupled to someone keeping a close eye on the code snippets being uploaded by users, could provide a quick path to improving the documentation.
Having said all that, it should be obvious that the existing structure of the documentation (especially with regard to developers) is in need of dramatic change. IG must realise that their competitors are producing documentation that is superior in terms of ease of use, and new customers may well make purchasing descisions based largely on this factor.
I hope that IG do undertake a documentation review, as I feel that many of their controls are superior to other vendors. But be aware that the competitors are snapping at you heels. I would also like to see a slimming down of future controls, as many of the existing IG controls now have so many properties that without good documentation, searching the maze to find the one you want can be daunting.
So, in summary, redesign and improve the documentation, enable a contributable and searchable code snippet library, and produce more simple controls (e.g. new breadcrumbs control). Undertaking these actions would in my opinion make IG the leading control supplier. Not doing so, the danger is that some competitor will overtake you and steal market share.
Fair enough. Before anything else, I'd like to say that I really do appreciate this direct interaction with customers. It's as close as we get to a mom & pop control shop in this detached internet world.
If I could set the takeaway notes for this thread, I think I'd include the following: